[烛光生存狂]-[德国老兵回忆]非洲军老坦克兵之访谈录

This interview was conducted by Jeff Scott on Tuesday November 10th, 1998. Jeff interviewed Hans (his real name) who is the father of an internet friend of his. Hans comes to the United States once a year and drives all across the Country. Jeff was able to arrange a meeting when he came through Nashville. They spoke for several hours. Hans speaks good English, but there were a few times when he was at a loss for an English word. Because of this, please excuse any misspelled words below, as sometimes Jeff wasn't sure what Hans was saying, and other times he wasn't sure of the spelling (such as with locations and certain German words Jeff was unfamiliar with).

Jeff: What year did you join the army?

Hans: 1941

Jeff: How old were you when you entered the army?

Hans: I was seventeen when I volunteered.

Jeff: How did you get into the Panzer arm of the army?

Hans:I wanted to drive a tank. I was part of a replacement panzer unit. I was sent to a panzer driver's school, where I got my panzer driver license. I was then sent to a "Tropical" (warfare?) school north of Berlin, to prepare for my being sent to Afrika.

Jeff: Where did you go from there?

Hans: We (crew and tanks) were sent to Naples. Our tanks were to be shipped to Afrika, and we were going to be flying over (He said all previous groups went on ships with tanks). We were to fly over in a flight of JU-52's (he said they always flew in flights of 21...) The pilots were very nervous, they did not like the run. They basically threw us in the planes and took off. We flew only about 200 feet above the water. On the way we were "shadowed" by two British fighters. The pilots told us to man the machine gun. We did and tried to shoot down the fighter, but shooting out of a plane is much different from shooting on the ground. In flight everything looks much closer then it really is. They harassed us a bit, but didn't shoot down any of us. We were relieved when the airport came into sight. We were in for a nasty shock however as while we were making our landing approach, bombs started going off all around us! The pilot made some crazy maneuvers and aborted the landing. There was flak going off all around us and we thought that we would be killed before we even landed. We circled the airport and eventually landed. All planes landed safely, even though some were damaged. It turns out that there was a flight of 18 British bombers above us when we tried to land. I guess they thought they could kill two birds with one stone, so to speak. We were lucky to be alive.

Jeff: What unit were you attached to?

Hans: 21st Panzer Division. I was a part of Panzer Regiment 5.

Jeff: What type of Panzers were you driving?

Hans: I drove both Panzer Mark III's and IV's.

Jeff: Which type did you like better?

Hans: I much preferred the Mark III. It was very fast, having a Maybach 12 Cylinder engine. (He then went on to tell me about how great the Maybach engines were.) I didn't like that it only had a 5-centimeter gun. We were really outgunned, but speed partially made up for it.

Jeff: What did you think about the Mark IV?

Hans: Well, it had a much better gun, 7.5-centimeter. But it was quite a bit heavier, and had the same engine as the Mark III. Therefore it wasn't nearly as fast. It had a new gearbox system, 10 forward gears and 4 reverse. Not everyone could drive it. It was kind of a half-automatic.

Jeff: Did you encounter any Australian troops?

Hans: No, only British. British 8th army.

Jeff: What did you think of them?

Hans: Hard. Good fighters. They had good strong tanks. Very slow however. We liked their food

Jeff: Did you see a lot of action?

Hans: Yes. Almost continuously. It wasn't too bad however. We would fight from sunup to sundown. When it started getting dark, except for a few times, all fighting stopped. Much better then in Russia. (Brother in Russia wrote him about the hell that was going on)

Jeff: Did you have any interactions with Italian troops?

Hans: Yes. I had not known any Italians before, and fought with both the Ariete and Treste units (I don't know the spelling).

Jeff: What did you think of them?

Hans: The men were good. Their officers were poor, and their equipment was horrible. Their tanks were useless. The men however were good fighters.

Jeff: How did your capture come about?

Hans: We had been pushed back to Tunis, where we waited. We were later told of our surrender

Jeff: What did you think of your captors?

Hans: They were fair. They told us that our U-boats had been too successful. There was very little food and no water. We were given tea made from salt water. It was horrible, I can still taste it too this day. An officer told us that there wasn't enough food for us, they weren't trying to starve us. He told us to send some men to look at their food supplies, that he wasn't lying.

Jeff: Why did you escape?

Hans: No food. We wanted to surrender to the Americans. I didn't want to end up in England. I had always heard about how huge America was and I wanted to see it. Myself and 2 friends escaped one night and made our way to a food cache (emergency food rations in a cave they knew about). When we got there we found nothing but an alcohol drink made from pears (expensive Swiss stuff he told me). That's all we had to eat or drink for over a week. We were watching the road nearby for any sign of Americans. When we started seeing them driving past we went down and sat by the road until we were picked up.

Jeff: What did you think of the Americans?

Hans: They were kind. They had everything. After I had been captured, I realized that Germany had lost the war. We saw a train arrive that had carload after carload of toilet paper and tent pegs. I knew that an army that would bring all that, would not forget their guns! They had good cigarettes too! Camels

Jeff: How did you get to America?

Hans: We went on a Liberty ship. It took 5 weeks to get to New York. The captain was kind and let us stay on deck when we went through Gibraltar. They told us not to try and swim for it. We saw 2 Italians on another ship jump overboard and were quickly swept away by the currents. None of us tried it. There were more then 50 ships in our convoy. We later learned that German submarines were sitting underneath us with their torpedo doors open, waiting to fire. The BDU sent message to them not to fire that there were POW's on the ships. There were tankers in the middle of the convoy. The outer ring was of ships carrying POW's. We were being used to protect their tankers.

Jeff: Did that make you angry?

Hans: No. I knew that German military would have done same thing.

Jeff: Where did you go from there?

Hans: We docked in New York, and were put on Pullman cars after being processed. We were hungry on the train trip. They only brought small amounts of food at mealtime. We were told if they gave us a lot of food that it would make us sick. They promised us more food later.

Jeff: Did your family know where you were?

Hans: No. It was a year before they knew I was alive.

Jeff: What Prisoner of War Camp did you go to?

Hans: First we went to Camp Raston(or Ruston?) in Louisiana. There was nothing there. They gave us tools and we made some buildings and sports fields. They had nothing for us to do. We did no work, just played soccer and such. There was lots of food but not much equipment. We had to use flour to line our soccer fields because we had no chalk.

Jeff: I notice in your photo album that the men are still wearing their uniforms, even with badges and medals on them? That is really a surprise!

Hans: Well they didn't have any clothes for us! So they let us keep our uniforms. That man (pointing to album) was a sergeant in charge of 4 barracks, about 600 men. (Sergeant in photo is wearing Iron Cross 2nd class ribbon, Iron Cross 1st class, and silver would badge.)

Jeff: What did you think of the camp?

Hans: It was boring, but there was a lot of food. I was there about 6 months. Some of the men still gave the nazi salute. I thought this very bad taste. We were a guest in this country. I know if a Russian had saluted "Mother Russia" he would have been shot.

Jeff: Where did you go next?

Hans: Next I was sent to Camp Como in Mississippi. It was hot. Most of the men picked cotton, very hard work.

Jeff: What did you do?

Hans: I worked on a Singer (sewing machine). We repaired uniforms and let out pants and such. The officers did not work. They were expected to escape. We would collect American money we found in the clothing we were repairing and give it to anyone that wanted to escape. One man escaped and was caught by a farmer. The officer had been living in farmer's barn, and drinking milk out of his cow. The farmer knew was something was going on because his cow started being dry when he tried to milk her. Another man was caught crossing a bridge over the Mississippi river. We got tired of such foolishness and stopped saving them money. We were at Como for about 8 months.

Jeff: What next?

Hans: We went to a temporary work camp in Idaho. We picked huge amounts of potatoes, sugar beets, and onions. We lived in tents for 2 months.

Jeff: What was your work day like?

Hans: Actually pretty easy. We were only required to pick a certain amount of food a day. We were always done by 2:00. The farmer would then bribe us with cigarettes or chocolate and we would do more work. But sometimes we just sat under the trees. It was good.

Jeff: Then where did you go?

Hans: Next I went to Utah. An airbase named Hillfield in Ogden. They asked me what I had done and I told them panzer driver. They said "Good, now you are a snow plow driver". I was in charge of cleaning off the runway. Later they made me stop, a new rule had come about saying no German could be on the airway. I had picked up a decent amount of English during my time so far. So them made me an interpreter. It was boring. I told a friend I wanted to work and an American overheard me and said "I have a job you can do." "Can you drive?" "I'm your man" I replied. He sent me to get me eyes checked then to get checked out on a truck. I started driving a lunch truck. A woman and myself went to parts of the base that were too far away for them to come and eat. I would take their money and she would serve them. I also delivered bakery goods. I liked this because I told the cooks that I was required to test the food to make sure it was acceptable. I ate three chocolate eclairs a day! Later they let me deliver the bakery goods alone. I had to get a regular drivers license.(Which I have seen, real Utah drivers license stating Hans was a Prisoner of War but was allowed to drive on all streets in Utah.)

Jeff: When did you finally get back to Germany?

Hans: 1946. I didn't want to go home. I loved the United States.(Apparently the Americanization worked well on him. He still loves the US.)

Jeff: I then asked Hans some various other questions that I had thought up and others had requested me to ask. What did you think of Rommel?

Hans: We loved him. We thought as long as he was our commander we couldn't lose. We were very discouraged when he left. He also kept the SS out of Afrika! Did you know that? (No, I had never heard that.) Rommel hated Himmler and the SS. He refused to have any under his command. Hitler worked out a deal where every once in a while SS "observers" would come to Afrika, but there were no real units there.

Jeff: Have you seen Private Ryan, do you have any favorite war movies? (I love his answer here!)

Hans: No, I haven't seen private ryan. I don't really watch war movies. I have no need to. I was there. I did see Bridge at Remagen. I liked it.

Jeff: What do you think of current day Berlin?

Hans: Very different from my youth. I was born in Berlin you see. It tore me up seeing my home destroyed the way it was.

Jeff: Do you go to Veteran reunions?

Hans: No. I see some of my friends from that time now and again. But I don't go to reunions. It would take too much time away from my sports. (This was the same answer he gave when I asked him why he didn't have a computer) I love my tennis and skiing too much. (He also goes wind surfing still. Don't laugh, I've seen photos of that too!)

Jeff: Did you have any idea of all the interest in WWII Germany?

Hans: None. It has been so long since I talked with anyone about the war. I have enjoyed it however. (I then proceded to show him Jason's site and he was very impressed.)

Jeff: What did you learn from all your experiences?

Hans: (Long pause, then speaking very softly) It was a horrible time for me and all of Germany. We (Germans) have no one to blame except ourselves. I lost all three of my brothers. My home was destroyed and invaded. I know that the best place I could have been was in those camps thousands of miles away. I survived. What else can I say. So many did not. I'm simply thankful to be alive.

这次采访是由杰夫·斯科特在1998年11月10日（星期二）所进行的。杰夫采访了他网友的父亲汉斯（这是他的真名）。汉斯在美国已经呆了一年，他正在驱车走遍美国。杰夫可以在他经过纳什维尔（Nashville）的时候安排一次会面。他们谈了好几个小时。汉斯的英语很好，但是有时候他也会忘记他想要在表达使用的英文词汇，所以说请留意下文中拼写错误的单词，因为他对拼写并不确定（例如关于地点和杰夫所不熟悉的德文词汇）

J：你是那一年参军的？

H：1941年。

J：你参军的时候多大？

H：当我志愿加入军队的时候17岁。

J：你是怎样进入陆军装甲部队的？

H：我本来就想驾驶一辆坦克。我也是后备坦克部队的一员。当时我曾经被送往坦克驾驶兵学校，在那里我获得了坦克驾驶执照。然后我被送往位于柏林北部的“热带”作战学校，然后为我被送往非洲参战做准备。

J：之后您从那里到了哪儿？

H：我们（坦克和车组成员）被送往拿波里。然后我们的坦克将通过海运到非洲，而我们则乘飞机抵达（但是按照H的说法，他前面的部队都是乘船与坦克一道抵达的）。我们乘坐容客52（他说他们总是在21次班机中飞行？）。飞行员非常紧张，他们显然不太喜欢这个旅程。基本上他们把我们赶上飞机后就起飞了。我们在距离海平面约200英尺的低空飞行，在途中两架英俊战斗机尾随我们的飞机。飞行员告诉我们使用机尾的极强。我们尝试着向他们射击，但是在空中对飞行中的战机进行射击和地面射击完全是两回事。在空中看上去似乎所有物体的距离都要比实际的近。他们跟的很紧，但是没有打下我们编队中的任何一架战机。当我们看到地面机场的时候终于松了一口气。我们已经经历了一次惊吓，但是当我们的飞机准备着陆的时候，炮弹在我们四周响了起来！飞行员做了一些疯狂的激动来中止着陆动作。这是我们的高炮!我们当时都认为我们可能没有踏上非洲土地的机会了。我们围着机场盘旋，终于着陆了。虽然部分飞机遭到了损坏，但是总算都安然着陆了。后来我们才直到当我们试图着陆的时候，有一个18架英军轰炸机组成的编队正在我们头顶。我想他们可能打算一石二鸟。但幸运的是我们活下来了。

Continue......

J:你当时属于哪个单位？

H：第21装甲师。我是第5装甲团的一员。

J：您当时驾驶什么型号的坦克？

H：我开过III型和IV型坦克。

J：你更喜欢那种型号？

H：我更喜欢III型。它装了迈巴赫的12缸汽油发动机速度很快（然后他就开始告诉我迈巴赫发动机是多么的好）。我不喜欢的就是它只有一门50mm炮。在武器方面我们已经被超过了，只有速度可以弥补一下。

J：您认为IV型坦克怎么样？

H：当然，它有更好的武器配置，75mm火炮。但是它有点重了，但是使用的是与III型相同的发动机。因此它不像前者那么快。但安装了新的变速箱系统，有10个前进档和4高倒档。并不是所有人都能够顺利的驾驭它。它是一种半自动化的系统。

J：你遭遇过澳大利亚军队吗？

H：没有，只有英国人，英国第8军。

J：你认为他们怎么样？

H：很厉害。优秀的战士。他们有威力更大的坦克，但是速度很慢。我们喜欢的他们的食物。

J：你参加过很多次战斗吗？

H：是的。总是连续不断的。但是这些也不太糟糕。我们可以从日出一直战斗到日落。但是当夜幕降临后，除了特殊情况之外，所有的战斗都停止了。这一点比俄国要好。（我在俄国服役的兄弟在信中告诉我他们经历的是怎样一个地狱）

12.31更新......

J: 你们和意大利军队有过接触和协同行动吗？

H: 是的。之前我并不认识意大利人，但是我们曾经与Ariete和Treste部队一同战斗过。

J: 你觉得他们怎么样？

H：士兵们不错，军官则很难说，他们的装备糟糕的可怕。他们的坦克完全无用，但是不管怎么说，意大利士兵是优秀的战士。

J：你是怎么被俘的？

H：我们被盟军压倒了突尼斯，然后在那里等待。后来我们被告知非洲军已经投降了。

J：你认为你们的对手怎么样？

H：他们非常坦率（公正）。他们告诉我们德国的潜艇非常厉害。但是这里几乎没有食物，也没有水。他们只给我们用咸水煮的茶。这种状况令人恐怖，直到今天我还能回味起这种咸水茶的味道。一个军官告诉我们没有足够的食物给我们，当然他们不是想把我们饿死。他告诉我们派些人去看看他们自己的食品补给，显然他没有说谎。

J：你后来为什么逃跑？

H：没有吃的。我们希望向美国人投降。我不想在英国结束着一切。我曾经多次听说过美国的辽阔国土，我想去见识一下。一天晚上我和我的两个朋友逃出了战俘营然后沿着路去到一个我们的食品小仓库中（这里是他们知道的在一个山洞中的紧急食品补给）。但是当我们到达那儿的时候发现除了一瓶梨子酒之外一无所有（我的同伴说这是很贵的瑞士货）。这就是我们在预计的一周行程中所带的唯一补给！我们沿着公路关产任何美国人出现的信号，但我们看到他们驱车过来的时候，我们坐在公路上直到他们把我们弄上车。

J：你觉得美国人怎么样？

H：他们比较友好。他们什么都有。当我再次被俘的时候，我发现德国已经输掉了战争。我们看到驶来的列车中，装的仅仅是一车皮又一车皮的卫生纸和帐篷桩！我明白一支军队会把这种东西大量的运到前线，显然更不会忘记运输武器！他们的香烟也很不错。骆驼牌的。

J: 你是怎么到美国的？

H：我们乘上了一艘自由轮。在船上颠簸了5星期之后才到达了纽约。船长也挺不错的，当我们经过直布罗陀海峡的时候他允许我们走上甲板。美国人告诉我们最好不要试图跳海逃跑。我们亲眼看到另一艘船上的两个意大利人跳下了水，但是很快就消失在湍急的海流中了。这样我们这些德国人就更不会试了。我们的船队中有超过50艘船。后来我们直到德国潜艇就在我们下面准备，等待开火的命令。但是BDU给他们发送信息说不要开火，因为船队中运输的是战俘。在船队的中央编有油船。而外围则是运送战俘的船只。我们称为了油船的盾牌。

J：这没有让你感到生气吗？

H：可以理解。我直到我们德国人也会这么做。

J：之后你们到了哪儿？

H：我们在纽约下船，然后乘坐卧铺列车启程，在他们处理之前。在路途中我们饿坏了，他们仅在午餐时间给我们一点食物。我们被告知，如果他们给我们的食物太多我们将会生病。他们许诺稍后给我们提供更多的食物。

J：你的家人知道你在哪儿吗？

H：不知道。他们在一年后才知道我还活着。

最近挺忙的......继续继续：

J：你去了哪个战俘营？

H：首先我们被送往路易斯安娜州的Ruston战俘营。但是那儿什么也没有。美国人给我们提供了工具，我们然后建了房子和运动场。他们没有什么需要我们干的，当然我们也只是踢踢足球什么的。事物很充足，但是其他设施比较缺乏。由于没有粉笔，我们只能用面粉（！）来划出我们的足球场。

J：我注意到在你的影集里，你们的人仍然穿着带有军衔标志和勋章的军服？着确实令人惊讶！

H：那是因为他们没有衣服提供给我们！所以说他们让我们继续穿着自己的制服。这个人（他指着照片中的）是一个中士，但是他却负责四个营房，600余人（照片中的中士佩有二级铁十字勋章和一级铁十字勋章）

J：你认为战俘营怎么样？

H：非常枯燥，除了食物充足之外。我在那里待了六个月。有的军人之间仍然继续互致纳粹敬礼。我认为那是一个非常坏的做法。要知道我们实在敌人的国家，我知道如果德国战俘营中的苏联人敬礼“向俄罗斯母亲致敬”的话，他一定会被枪毙的。

J：接下来你到了哪里？

H：接下来我送往密西西比州的Como战俘营。那里很热，大多数人都在收棉花，这是一项非常艰苦的工作罗。

2月1日

J：你当时负责什么工作？

H：我在“辛格”上工作（一种缝纫机械）。我们缝补我们的制服并且将短裤接长。军官按照日内瓦公约不需要工作。他们一直在筹划逃亡。我们可以搜集任何我们能够找到的美元并将其缝进我们缝补的衣服中，交给打算逃亡的战俘。有个人逃跑了但是很快就被附近的一位农民抓获。这个军官躲在牲畜棚中，通过挤牛奶维持生命。但是农场的主人很快就发现了问题：他的奶牛挤不出奶来了。另外一个人则在穿过密西西比河的一座大桥的时候被逮捕。我们对这种愚蠢的逃跑行为感到厌倦了，因此，我们停止了为这些人节省零花钱的做法。我们一直在科莫待了8个月。

J：接下来呢？

H：我们接下来到了爱达荷州的一个临时劳动营。我们收了大量的马铃薯、甜菜和洋葱。我们在帐篷中住了两个月。

J：你们的日常工作是怎么样的？

H：实际上非常简单。我们只需要每天采集定量的事务。一般我们在下午两点就完成了全天的工作了。但是当地的农场主往往通过“贿赂”一些香烟和巧克力使我们能够再多干一会儿。但是有时我们仅仅是坐在树荫下面乘凉，感觉还不错。

J：后来你们到了哪里？

H：接下来我们到了犹他州。在奥格登有一个名叫希尔菲尔德（Hillfield）的空军基地。他们问我在军队中是干什么工作的，我说我是一名坦克驾驶员。他们说“很好，现在你就是除雪车司机了”。我负责清理积雪结冰的跑道。后来他们不让我干了，因为根据一项新的规定，不允许德国战俘在跑道上干活。但是也正是在那段时间，我学到了一口不错的英语（就像你们今天听到的那样）。所以后来他们又让我干翻译。这项工作比较乏味。我和一个朋友诉说了自己的苦恼，后来一个美国人无意中听说了我然后说“我又一个工作你可以干。”“你会开车吗？”“先生，我是你的了。”我回复道。He sent me to get me eyes checked then to get checked out on a truck. 我开始驾驶餐车。同车的还有一位美国妇女，我们带着饭食到达那些距离餐厅太远而无法及时吃晚饭的基地区域中。我负责收钱，她负责服务。我也经常去送面包。我告诉厨师，我需要尝尝食物是否可口合适。有一次我一天就吃了三个法式的eclair 面包！后来他们让我单独送面包。而且还给我办了正式的驾驶执照（就像你们所看到的，真正的犹他州驾驶执照，他可能是第一个获得美国架照的德国战俘，这个驾驶执照允许他在犹他州的所有道路上行驶）

J：你是什么时间返回的德国？

H：1946年。我暂时还不想回见。因为我喜欢美国（显然他的“美国化”进行的非常彻底，因为可以看出他现在还爱着美国）。

J：我然后开始问汉斯一些其他的问题，是我偶然想到或者其他人请求我问的。你怎样看待隆美尔？

H：我们爱戴他。我想当他仍然是我们的最高指挥官的时候，我们就不会失败。当他离开的时候我们非常气馁。他也一直将党卫军排除在非洲之外！这些事实你知道吗？（编者按：从来没听说过）。隆美尔仇恨党卫军和希姆莱。他拒绝任何这种人在他的指挥下。希特勒最后妥协了，因为只有少数的党卫军观察员偶尔在非洲出现过，他们没有在任何现役的正式单位中服役。

2月5日

J：你看过《拯救大兵瑞恩》吗，你有没有你最喜欢的电影？（在这里我喜欢他的答案！）

H：不，我从未看过大兵。我确实不大看战争电影。因为我没有需要。我就在那儿（我就在场）。不过我确实看过《雷马根大桥》，我喜欢这部电影。

J：你怎样看现代柏林？

H：与我年轻时代看到的很不同。要知道我是在柏林出生的。看到我的家乡被毁灭的方式曾使我流泪。

J：你参加过老兵聚会吗？

H：没有，只是经常见见当时的几个战友。但是我从不会参加老兵聚会。

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