[烛光生存狂]-[老兵访谈]二战德国防空娃娃兵

I N T E R V I E W

GERMAN SCHOOLBOY FLAK GUNNER

By John Pursley

At the beginning of World War II, the thought of schoolboys manning a German anti-aircraft battery would have been inconceivable. By early 1942, however, Germany was experiencing tremendous manpower shortages. Casualties suffered since 1939 had rapidly gobbled up most of a generation and the Nazis began conscripting younger and younger men in order to fill the vacancies in the ranks.

The recollections of these former child soldiers provides an opportunity to examine the war from another perspective. Their accounts often differ widely from those of what many have come to accept as the typical German fighting man.

Despite the passage of years, the memories of those long ago days linger. Remembrances of battle, compounded with years of internment in postwar prison camps, are still a vivid reality in the mind of Lothar Seifert, one of the young conscripts. Only recently has he chosen to share his thoughts and recollections. John Pursley interviewed him for Military History.

Military History: How old were you when you were conscripted into the German military?

Seifert: I had recently turned 15 when I entered the service. I was attending high school in Berlin one day as I usually did, when a group of soldiers came into my classroom. The officer in charge ordered all of us students to stand and face him. As I watched him move across the front of the room, I wondered if he had come to tell stories of our victorious army. My curiosity, however, was short lived. The officer suddenly stopped, and in a loud, authoritative voice, bluntly stated we were being conscripted into military service. I had heard about press gangs being used to fill the ranks of the British navy during the last few centuries, but I never really thought it would become a practice in Germany, let alone happen to me. I accepted my fate knowing it would be futile, if not fatal, to resist. I barely had time to say goodbye to my family before they took me to the local military headquarters.

MH: What happened then?

Seifert: After a few days of orientation where we were issued uniforms and given a basic overview of military life, we were distributed among various groups of soldiers stationed throughout the areas surrounding Berlin. Being under 18 years of age, most of us quickly discovered that we fell into the gray area between civilian and soldier. Although we were officially designated members of the Hitler Youth, we were assigned to perform military duties similar to those of the older men. We were issued regulation Luftwaffe uniforms, but were told we would have to wear the armband of the Hitler Youth in order to distinguish us from the Regular personnel. I can still remember feeling especially resentful of that order. To me, wearing that particular armband was an insult, and I hated even the thought of someone seeing me in it.

MH: What was it about wearing the armband that you did not like?

Seifert: Quite simply, we considered it to be a mark that implied we were children and not soldiers. The directive made us very angry because we felt that if we were expected to fight as soldiers and act like men, we shouldn't have to look like a bunch of Boy Scouts parading around in some silly looking armband. Another reason for our negative attitude was that among my friends, the Hitler Youth movement was sort of a joke. You know, something reserved for fanatical people who wanted their children to look and play like little soldiers. It was really an insult to be associated with that movement, so we simply refused to wear them.

MH: What sort of duties were you assigned?

Seifert: I suppose you could say that my primary duty was to help shoot down enemy planes before they and the chance to bomb Berlin. At first they tried to make me the loader on a 88mm flak gun, but I didn't last too long on that job. Our leaders quickly figured out that boys my age didn't have the upper body strength required to hold the charge in place while closing the breach. This would have been a different case if the barrel were not required to be kept at such a steep angle in order to facilitate the cannon's role as an anti-aircraft weapon. Soon after they figured out we weren't strong enough, I was transferred to one of the 105mms. These guns were a lot easier for boys my age to operate because they were equipped with an automatic

loading device.

MH: Being stationed in Berlin, were you involved in a lot of action?

Seifert: At first we would be called five or six times a week for some fairly heavy action. But as the war progressed and our ability to stop the air raids was neutralized, the planes appeared with progressively increasing frequency. By the middle of 1943, when the Americans came by day and the British bombed by night, it seemed as if we were manning our guns most of the time. But you know, it really wasn't such a bad situation for me personally. I was very young, still immortal in my own mind, and really didn't think about dying or the fact I was helping to kill people I didn't know. Truthfully, I used to have a lot of fun firing the cannon at airplanes and watching the flak explode. It was very exciting and dangerous to be involved in that sort of action.

MH: Were you ever decorated?

Seifert: I was awarded the Luftwaffe flak badge about six months into my service. This type of badge was given to each member of the gun crew after we had shot down our fifth plane.

MH: Is that your only decoration?

Seifert: The only one I really feel I genuinely earned. I say that because I had many opportunities to be awarded the Iron Cross, but toward the end of the war, they didn't mean too much. It was about as symbolic as finding the prize in a box of cereal. Have you ever seen the movie footage of Adolf Hitler standing outside of his bunker giving young boys medals? This sort of situation became commonplace, and I can distinctly remember officers running around with boxes of Iron Crosses giving them out as one gives out candy on Halloween. All of the awards lost much of their prestige and were reduced to little more than a ploy to build morale. On occasion, the idea would work, but it was a shame because there were many men who were genuinely deserving of the recognition the Iron Cross should have brought to them and their families.

MH: With all of the action going on, were you on duty most of the time?

Seifert: We had some periods of time off, but I used to hate being caught on furlough during an enemy attack. Not only did that mean I would miss the action, but we weren't as safe in town as in the field, where our gun was. Very rarely was one of our anti-aircraft batteries hit by the falling bombs. In reality, the last place I wanted to be during a bombing raid was in the inferno of a group of burning buildings.

MH: What did you do when there weren't any air raids going on?

Seifert: We had our set routines of general soldier duties and training, but we were also required to complete our schooling. I am still amazed at some of the priorities and organizational skills of the civic leaders. There, in the midst of a world war when Germany faced certain defeat, they were still having school for us. I suppose most of them believed the propaganda throw at us regarding our winning the war, so it was pretty much business as usual. As far as living conditions went, the barracks we occupied was our home, schoolroom, and place of entertainment. Even though we weren't technically in the service, we were placed under the supervision of sergeants and officers who were older and much more serious about things than we were.

MH: So in essence you were treated as soldiers?

Seifert: They tried to treat us like that, but we usually didn't let them get away with it or respond very well when they did. It didn't take us long to realize that because we were officially too young to be in the service, we some some control over our situation. We would drive our leaders crazy questioning everything they tried to make us do, and their authority in general. We would always look for the humor in a situation, and that wasn't always necessarily conducive to our relationship with them.

MH: Can you give me an example?

Seifert: I recall one instance when a sergeant tried to make us run several miles in ranks as a punishment for having some local girls visiting in our barracks. We ran all right, but were so slow we could have been going backwards. We knew he really couldn't do much other than yell and threaten us with things we all knew wouldn't happen. To make the story short, it became dark long before we completed even a portion of the distance. He was so frustrated with us, he just quit trying and dismissed the entire group. We were basically a lot of rowdy boys trying to enjoy ourselves at his expense. Things are a lot different when someone needs you more than you need them.

MH: Many people have the notion that Germans of that time thrived on militarism. It sounds as if that was not always the case.

Seifert: I don't think you should believe the myth that all of the German people thrived on a regimented lifestyle. Speaking for myself and the fellows I served with, we loved to harass our leaders and push every situation to the limit. I remember listening to one boy having a telephone conversation with his father who was in the Gestapo. We heard him say "Heil Hitler" before he hung the receiver up. We made such fun of him after that, never thinking there could be retribution. I am glad he didn't tell his father.

MH: What about some of the leaders of the country? What did you think of them?

Seifert: I saw Hitler a few times before the war with Josef Goebbels at his side, but I guess I was too young to understand or even care who they were. I was more concerned with enjoying the parades and functions that were going on. As far as some of the other leaders are concerned, I wasn't too impressed by their larger-than-life reputations. Take Hermann Goring for example: We often referred to him as "Hen Meyer" because that's what he said he would call himself if one enemy bomb ever fell on Germany. His reasoning behind the boast was that because Meyer is a very common [Jewish] name in Germany, he would be lowered in status if we called him that.

MH: Do you have a favorite story from those days?

Seifert: One I can recall involved our Oberleutnant [first lieutenant] who received notice he was being promoted to Hauptmann [captain]. There is a very old army song that's not really too complimentary, about a Hauptmann riding on a billy-goat. Being the kind of boys that we were, we decided to help him celebrate his promotion the next day. To prepare, a few of us went out that night and stole a goat from a local farmer, while some other boys went to the home of one of the girls who used to be sort of a groupie to us. One fellow ended up stealing a corset from the mother who was very large, along with some other items of her undergarments.

The next morning, we dressed the goat in the clothing we had stolen from the woman and left it where the Hauptmann would find it. When he saw what we had done, it really made him mad. He knew it was us, but then again, there wasn't a lot he could do. We thought it was very funny at the time, but the joke got better when we found out he had to return all of the items and apologize to the owners on our behalf. I can still picture him totally red-faced with embarrassment, holding up the large pair of underwear in front of the woman and groveling to her. I'm sure if he's still alive, he remembers the incident.

MH: We hear horror stories of downed Allied airmen being killed by civilians. Is there any truth to them?

Seifert: Perhaps it did happen, but I never heard of it until several years after the war. In my sector, we would watch the "mushrooms" drift towards earth after the airplanes crashed, and would race each other out to meet the men. Sometimes we took the airmen to our barracks and entertained them until our soldiers arrived by playing some of the Louis Armstrong records we had. It was all so impersonal to us. These men were like us, in that they were only doing what they had been told, and not necessarily what they wanted to do. To be quite honest, the worst treatment I ever saw taken against a downed airman was not allowing him to use the latrine because the authorities were afraid to let him out of their sight.

MH: So I take it you didn't really hate your enemies?

Seifert: Goodness no. I don't think most of us actually hated anyone. We didn't like to be bombed, but we understood the reason and accepted the fact. After all, we were shooting back at them. I think all of the soldiers on either side were in the same situation as far as making the best of a bad time.

MH: Were you always stationed in Berlin?

Seifert: No. After I had turned 16, I was conscripted into the "real" armed forces. However, before I could go to basic training, I was forced to spend the mandatory four months of service with the labor corps. That to me was very stupid. Here I was, already trained in the use of artillery and familiar with military ways, but they obviously thought that was a better way of serving my country. So with shovel in hand, I went to the nearest front, which at that time was in Czechoslovakia someplace. Our main objective was to dig trenches for our troops who were retreating from the Russians. That was not the best duty a person could have. Somehow I survived and in December 1944 reported for Luftwaffe basic training.

MH: We have heard that the German armed forces were very strict. Was basic training hard for you?

Seifert: You know, that's another myth I need to dispel. Our basic training was tough physically, but we weren't hazed. For example, if I were the drill sergeant and saw a button your tunic unfastened, I would have to ask permission before I touched you. They didn't mistreat us like soldiers in the United States experience during training. I believe the gentlemanly attitude comes from a history of Prussian aristocracy and respect for individuals.

MH: Where did you go after basic training?

Seifert: They sent me to Denmark, where the people were still friendly toward us. Due to the fact that the country had not been invaded but was only under the protection of the Reich, the problems experienced elsewhere didn't exist. We were able to get along very well with the people until the Allies started dropping weapons and supplies to the resistance. That really ruined the situation for everyone. As a result of Allied propaganda, the people who found the weapons thought it was their duty to shoot at us even though there were no real cases of civilian mistreatment prior to that time. After the shootings started, the Gestapo would be called in to investigate every situation, which would almost always result in civilian executions and sanctions against them. Those actions just incited more retaliatory attacks against us, which created a spiraling effect. A good situation was ruined and many people needlessly killed because of the Allied intervention.

For example, when I first got there, I carried no weapons and could frequent civilian establishments. But after the equipment drops to the underground started, they made us carry Schmeissers everywhere we went, and the cafes and clubs were placed off-limits. Fortunately, I never had to shoot my weapon, and couldn't really tell you how.

MH: So you in essence blame the atrocities carried out by Germans against civilians on the various underground organizations?

Seifert: For the most part, yes. I suppose the underground movements started out in an honorable, patriotic fashion, but some were eventually corrupted by opportunists. At the very least, a lot of the people belonging to the underground were pillagers and extortionists.

MH: How do you mean?

Seifert: I am getting a little ahead of myself, but I learned a lot about the underground after the war. For example, some of the Maquis would blackmail the Vichy French, forcing them to pay extortion money in order to avoid detection. After the Germans left France, the arrangement ended, and so did the lives of the collaborators. I believe many thousands of civilians would have escaped execution if the underground had not provoked retaliation. In reality, the underground organizations were not that effective when compared to the Allied operations as a whole. They were mostly like a fly in the ointment, even though they caused the German war effort some grief. People are always speaking of atrocities, but as far as I am concerned, if you don't want atrocities, don't start a war.

MH: Where did you go after you left Denmark?

Seifert: Half of my unit went to the Eastern Front and the rest of us went back to Berlin to man the AA batteries. There was a lot of confusion back then, and people were transferred all over for no apparent reason. At times you didn't know what unit you were in unless someone told you.

MH: How did the war end for you?

Seifert: We were issued rifles and Panzerfausts with orders to fight on "till the death." Some of us went into a small town to set up defensive positions, but were stopped by a very nervous major who requested us to surrender our weapons to him as the Americans were very near. We realized that was the smart thing to do, so he locked our rifles in a room and we gave ourselves up.

MH: Now the big question: How were you treated?

Seifert: At first, fairly well by the front-line soldiers like ourselves. They gave us cigarettes and chocolate, then told us to walk farther back toward their rear lines because that is where the prisoners were kept. After we arrived in the area, conditions changed drastically. The rear echelon soldiers robbed us of our possessions, decorations and anything else of value they wanted. It seemed that as soon as Germany had given up all of the Allied prisoners of war, the Geneva Convention ceased to exist. With the capitulation of Germany came years of abuse for a large number of former German soldiers. Suddenly, we were no longer prisoners of war, but were classified "disarmed enemy forces," undeserving of treatment given to captured soldiers.

We were starved, beaten, murdered and worked to death by our captors. We slept out in the elements with no shelter other than our Zeitbahn, if we still had them, and were deprived of the most basic sanitary facilities. We were not allowed any Red Cross visits, medical treatment or even to write our families and let them know we were still alive.

MH: Where were you kept?

Seifert: I was eventually transferred to a compound in France, where the soldiers would just as soon kill us, and they many times did. We were placed on starvation rations and forced to work in slave labor details. Some may say we were getting paid back for the mistreatment of people held in SS concentration camps. However, we were victims of circumstance, prisoners

of war, and should have been treated as such.

MH: Are you saying the Allies ran concentration camps after the war?

Seifert: Yes I am. The deaths of perhaps a million German soldiers after the war is an undeniable fact as well as a very well-kept secret. There is a recent book on the subject by James Bacque, entitled "Other Losses". It had to be published in Canada because it could not be done in the United States. I attribute that to the fact that very few people in this country believe the Allies treated prisoners in such a deplorable manner. I'm here to tell you that it happened to many of us.

MH: How did you survive under those conditions?

Seifert: Fortunately, I was young and still in pretty good shape. I can't say the same for many of my fellow prisoners that I watched die from starvation and disease. I even saw boys as young as 12 and old men in their 60s interned in the camps. I couldn't understand it then and I still don't understand it now.

MH: Did the conditions ever improve?

Seifert: After a year or so, we began to be hired as laborers by French civilians to perform odd jobs on their farms or whatever. Some of these people were extremely nice and treated us very well. Many of the families would feed us and provide some of the medical care we so desperately needed. As time outside and 1 was dressed in only a out sooner had 1 taken up the offer

regimentation and fighting. Eventually, I was released from the camp system and offered several different jobs locally.

MH: What sort of work did they offer you?

Seifert: I had managed to learn a trade skills while a prisoner. The French obviously figured that since we were free labor, they would teach us some skills in order to fill their shortages in manpower. After I was freed, I thought I would have a better chance of survival if I remained in France, so I simply slid into the job I was trained for. I stayed in the country and worked until I returned to Germany in 1950. Thirteen years later, I immigrated to the United States.

MH: Looking back, what are your feelings today about your wartime experiences?

Seifert: I am very fortunate to have survived the fighting, but even more so to have lived through my treatment in the camps after the war. I'm very happy it's all behind me and that I finally have the opportunity to share my story with so many people who may gain an understanding.

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